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thete1 ([info]thete1) wrote,
@ 2008-09-11 04:17:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood: hopeful
Current music:Jimi Hendrix: "May This Be Love"
Entry tags:fan-fiction: all, fan-fiction: dc comicsverse, genre: slash, series: and each moment moved

A way so familiar
A way so familiar
by Te
September 11, 2008

Disclaimers: No one and nothing here is mine.

Spoilers/Timeline: A lot of references to older storylines, the newest being "War Games" and "Identity Crisis." AU all over the place -- and much won't make sense without first reading "The Lesson," which is available here.

Summary: In many ways, it's the role of a lifetime.

Ratings Note/Warnings: Sexual content which mostly does not dovetail with the content some readers may find to be disturbing.

Author's Note/Acknowledgments: I've wanted to write this story for years, but I couldn't have done it without the constant help and input of Petra, Mildred, and especially Jack as they helped me research, picked me up when I was feeling overwhelmed, gave me countless brilliant ideas, and, overall, kept me flying high as I wrote. This... it's the story of my heart, and I think it shows. I hope it works for y'all, too.

Story? Yes, story.

(Post a new comment)

Wonderful
(Anonymous)
2008-09-11 11:30 pm UTC (link)
Beautiful. Just beautiful. Tim instinctivly creating a "Tom Wayne" identity, and then building it to be a salvation to Bruces needs (for the Bat and the Man). And when Bruce needs, Tims basic coding demands that he is unable to say no - causing the inevitable breakdown of the Tim/Tom identity border.

I love the way you write Alfred. You have the most convincing reality of how a butler/servant can be the most wonderful guardian. Tim's love of Alfred is so warm. Tim's pure appreciation of Alfred's cuisine is joyful (espcially as it's one of the few area's that Tim's unrepently critical of Bruce - how can Bruce not treasure every mouthful indeed). Alfred seething over Lex's carefully disarrayed room was hilarious.

I was filled with glee the moment we found out Tim's roomate was Lex Luthor. And your Lex, the charming intelligent pre-meglomaniac showman who of course is confused and enticed by Tim being such a confusingly *honest* liar.

Harvey broke my heart. So earnest. Trying so hard. Just constantly trying. His and Bruce's friendship seems so natural. And your Harvey confronted with the reality of Tom/Bruces relationship - of course his reaction would be to look out for Bruce. Because it's just that simple for him. Because it's Bruce.

Your Bruce. I just ... I never considered how innocent and sheltered a sixteen year Bruce Wayne could be, but still with the obvious potential of becoming the Batman. And yet, you convinced me down to the bone. It seems so real, that a man who will always have a part of him being stuck at 8 years old forever has a certain child-like conception of the world. The childish dream that no kid will go through the loss that he went through. A dream he makes a calculated relity. Your Bruce seems such a honest link between that child and that man.

I love your Bruce. Thank you.

Al. alabama_whirley@hotmail.com

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Wonderful
[info]thete1
2008-11-07 06:43 pm UTC (link)
Beautiful. Just beautiful. Tim instinctivly creating a "Tom Wayne" identity, and then building it to be a salvation to Bruces needs (for the Bat and the Man). And when Bruce needs, Tims basic coding demands that he is unable to say no - causing the inevitable breakdown of the Tim/Tom identity border.

Mmmm, yes, yes, and yes. Tim just can't help himself -- this is what he was *made* for. And, you know, he does his *best* to put up a fight, but there's something of an undertow to work against there. Of course he'd be betrayed by his own busy little mind.

I love the way you write Alfred. You have the most convincing reality of how a butler/servant can be the most wonderful guardian. Tim's love of Alfred is so warm. Tim's pure appreciation of Alfred's cuisine is joyful (espcially as it's one of the few area's that Tim's unrepently critical of Bruce - how can Bruce not treasure every mouthful indeed). Alfred seething over Lex's carefully disarrayed room was hilarious.

You know, I think there's no one harder to write than Alfred, so it's awesome that you think I got it right. He's just... he's *Alfred*. He's almost the *engine* of the family, and so it's necessary to "check in" with him in any given story, I think...

I was filled with glee the moment we found out Tim's roomate was Lex Luthor. And your Lex, the charming intelligent pre-meglomaniac showman who of course is confused and enticed by Tim being such a confusingly *honest* liar.

*ehehehee* I have to admit -- the *most* fun I had while writing this story were those moments when Lex and Tim were playing off each other. They kind of made me swoon a bit, and I think it shows.

Harvey broke my heart. So earnest. Trying so hard. Just constantly trying. His and Bruce's friendship seems so natural. And your Harvey confronted with the reality of Tom/Bruces relationship - of course his reaction would be to look out for Bruce. Because it's just that simple for him. Because it's Bruce.

Mmmm, Harv. It took a *lot* of work to figure out what Harvey "looked like" when he was sixteen. I was still figuring it out when I started writing, so it's a relief that he worked. I just -- I've never been satisfied with the way the comics handled Bruce's relationship with Harvey (as opposed to the EXTREME LOVE I have for the toons and the toon tie-in comics), so I had to go my own way a lot...

Your Bruce seems such a honest link between that child and that man.

I love your Bruce. Thank you.

*purrrr* I have a *real* love for young!Bruce in some ways, for all that I don't write him often. He was really... well, look: He was made ENTIRELY OUT OF WOOBIE. ENTIRELY. I have no power against that whatsoever.

Thanks for the great feedback!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]megami
2008-09-12 10:42 am UTC (link)
Nine hours. No sleep. Must. Give. Te. Immediate. Feedback.

Guh! Batcest and identity porn! Two great tastes that…forgive me. Brain still breaking and suffering from severe lack of sleep. Nine hours it took and then “to be continued!” I was so relieved when I saw that. Relieved because I don’t want this to end *ever* and because it gave me an excuse to take a break and sleep and work and eat.

Well, I’ve never been sure how I feel about stories involving incest, but this isn’t really incest, right? It’s just regular ol’ Batcest, which is different, right? Tim and Bruce aren’t actually brothers, even if Bruce thinks so. They’re just, um, father and son. No. The way I have it in my head is that in this universe there are familial relationships that the English language is simply not equipped to handle. We need more words. Oy. This from a linguist.

“I want your *skin*”

God that is SO Bruce! I’m just fascinated with how Te created this not-yet-Batman and definitely not-yet-Brucie Bruce, and how parts of both slowly emerge. I love how some of FutureBruce appears due to Tim’s encouragement, and some comes through just because he’s Bruce. And when that happens, and when that surprises Tim, it really brings out the best in Our Timmy.

Oh, I just love this Tim, training Bruce the way Bruce trained him, but he never, ever stops being Robin. “Batman needs a Robin” is always there, underlying everything. I can’t wait to see how this turns out. Harvey Dent. The implications of Tim and YoungBruce falling in love, taking I mean giving each other their virginity (so hot and so *loving*). I want to speculate, but I’m going to keep those thoughts to myself because I’m afraid to speculate too much. I SO want a happy ending.

Oh God! Te I mean Tim knows, really knows, how to eat sushi! The megami in me is dancing around in a really not so Japanese way. Does “Te” mean what I think it means?

My favorite line (because it speaks to *me*) “But Tim is used to these little shocks at this point, and he manages to nod, smile, and thank her for her greeting -- in English which comes out stilted because he's *thinking* in Japanese.” That happens to me every single time I go to a Japanese restaurant in America. How does Te *do* that?

What I love about Te’s writing is that these characters are very real, for me. Tim is real. He’s got a voice that is completely distinct from any other voice that I’ve ever read, and I fall in love with him all over again every time Te writes him. This is incredible fiction. I feel incredibly fortunate to have “discovered” her. Heh.

(Reply to this)

a note from a reader only halfway through the story
[info]cmshaw
2008-09-12 01:38 pm UTC (link)
DAMN YOU, TE, I NEVER NEEDED TO BE PICTURING TIM AS THE MEAT IN A LUTHOR/TWO-FACE SANDWICH.

*shakes tiny fist of glee*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: a note from a reader only halfway through the story
[info]thete1
2008-11-07 07:05 pm UTC (link)
DAMN YOU, TE, I NEVER NEEDED TO BE PICTURING TIM AS THE MEAT IN A LUTHOR/TWO-FACE SANDWICH.

*ahahahahaa* I REFUSE to be blamed for that one. Except for how it's totally my fault. What can I say? They must've been *beautiful* babies...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]shinra_lackey
2008-09-12 11:56 pm UTC (link)
Tears and angst. Angst and tears. But, my god, so much hope. I can't believe that I've just read your story or not. It was, I mean, so damn incredible that I am just moved beyond being able to properly convey. I felt for Tim when he was thrust into his role as Tom Wayne, and how he had to try to make Bruce able to survive and become the man he was going to be. It just seemed so horrible and beautiful how you portrayed how Bruce would be hurt in the future, but how he would overcome with the help of his fiends and family.

I was a little weirded out by the threesome idea between Bruce, Harvey, and Tim, as I never really understood threesomes, but I think you made me understand a little bit about how it could work between these three, since Bruce was the one holding them together. I like how Tim and Harvey were mostly performing for him, and how it was still a awkward, but they were willing for Bruce. The whole relationship between Tim and Lex, and the conversation between Lex and Tim at the LexCorp party... I want someone to save Lex but I'm not sure how that would go.

And the two endings. Guh. Just perfect. I'm glad you were able to explore both possibilities and shared them both with us. I guess this is the part where I tell you about the tears, but not in a bad way. I just felt for both Tim and Bruce so much. Thank you for making me care for what the went through. I have to go reread this story again.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]thete1
2008-11-07 07:12 pm UTC (link)
But, my god, so much hope.

I have a very, very hard time writing things that don't end on (at least) a hopeful note. Just -- they're all such good *people* in their ways... well. If I can make things a little better for them, then that's what I'm going to do.

It just seemed so horrible and beautiful how you portrayed how Bruce would be hurt in the future, but how he would overcome with the help of his fiends and family.

*siiigh* Bruce *needs* people, and the better he understands that, the better he *does*...

I was a little weirded out by the threesome idea between Bruce, Harvey, and Tim, as I never really understood threesomes, but I think you made me understand a little bit about how it could work between these three, since Bruce was the one holding them together.

I'm pretty much convinced that it's extremely difficult for people who are -- in some way -- *close* to Bruce to *not* try to make things a little better for him. *Somehow*.

The whole relationship between Tim and Lex, and the conversation between Lex and Tim at the LexCorp party... I want someone to save Lex but I'm not sure how that would go.

With a great *deal* of difficulty, I think. *sigh* Poor Lex...

And the two endings. Guh. Just perfect. I'm glad you were able to explore both possibilities and shared them both with us. I guess this is the part where I tell you about the tears, but not in a bad way. I just felt for both Tim and Bruce so much. Thank you for making me care for what the went through. I have to go reread this story again.

:D :D :D I'm so glad they worked for you. The people I discussed the story with before I started writing it were two and two in terms of which ending they thought would be better, so I pretty much *had* to write both.

Thanks so much for commenting!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Comments on part II
[info]megami
2008-09-13 09:40 pm UTC (link)
Tim is Tom, Bruce's brother from another universe, but Tom is also Tom, Bruce's cousin from California. God, it’s identity porn within identity porn. My head hurts. I think Te has come up with a whole new genre!

Batman I mean Bruce wants Robin I mean Tom to dress like a girl I mean Bowie!!!!!! Hominahomina.

Gah! Bruce wanting Tom and Harvey to become lovers. That is so, um, sweet? And so Bruce! He just loves his loved ones so much, he *can’t* have them not love each other too.

Lex *faking* being gay because it’s the last thing a boy of his generation would want people to believe of him—this is just precious. The thing about it is, he thinks he’s being clever at the misdirection game, and he’s surprised and maybe respectful of Tim for seeing through it, but it also speaks to Lex’s arrogance that he expects everyone around him to act like his minions (and yes, they are wonderful and necessary too!). What Lex doesn’t realise is that Tim is in another league, so to speak, when it comes to misdirection, and Bruce will be too, someday. Lex’s belief that he’s practically invented this game might explain a lot about why he never really sees Bruce in Batman, and it really explains why Lex never, ever sees Clark. After all, Clark is really the master of this game. Lex is really not that good at it. He only fools the people foolish enough to not want to see through it, or who need something from him, and Lex gets hurt (gym teacher) by those who are not impressed with his “alter-ego”. Brucie never allows that to happen. It’s like, Lex knows he’s powerful and going to be extremely powerful, but he can’t seem to understand that there will be people who are even more powerful than he is. Maybe that’s his greatest weakness.

I found this line particularly heartbreaking: “It's tempting to go with 'yes, of course,' but... there's something different about Lex at the moment, something a little frightening in its normality... because Tim is abruptly, devastatingly positive that this is the first time Lex has had sex with... a friend.” Oh, poor Lex!

And this line: “Bruce *thrusts* and Harvey squeezes his scrotum *hard*, and Bruce feels himself shaking helplessly, *wanting* at the damning, wonderful sight of a bulge in Harvey's cheek, the knowledge that he's responsible for that change, that break in symmetry-” GEEZ, Te!

(Reply to this)

Pt. I
[info]shadowvalkyrie
2008-09-15 06:50 am UTC (link)
God, Te, I have no idea how to leave feedback that even remotely expresses what this story did to me! It broke my brain ten times over, to be sure, and I don't have enough words... not to mention words for how it broke my heart even worse.
But let me try anyway, because you deserve all the happy flaily comments you could ever want.

The first part (Bruce and Tim at the manor) must be one of the cutest things in existence. It's also scary, in the thoroughly enjoyable Tim-being-a-lying-Bastard-and-getting-lost-in-it-a-little way.
I love Tim's reaction to 70s Gotham, the fashion, his care about language... Damn, the seventies were amusing! Well, right until we get innocent, confused-about-his-sexuality Bruce, who is already 16 but has never seen a porn movie in his life and has no clue what to do, and suddenly the seventies are a lot less fun.
And then Tim kicks Bruce on the right way to becoming Batman even though he knows perfectly well how insane the whole thing is. *urge to run screaming rising*
And Steph... trample on my heart some more, why don't you?
It's still a happy place, though. With Christmas presents, and dates, and making out on a rooftop, and Alfred being Alfred. Oh, wait, that last one was somewhat creepy. Yet also sweet.
And I love how absolutely different their narrative voices are. So many different kinds of perfect.

The second part (at Exeter, and eeep, boarding school! dorm sex!) made me happy as well, though in different ways. All the clever little mind games and young!Harvey and pseudo-teenage-rebel!Lex and David Bowie... The need to hide all the time... And the communal showers, because those will never not be sexy. And Bruce being young and innocent and asking Tim and Harvey to have sex with each other... And Harvey as Bruce's guidebook to unwritten rules (I found myself wishing I'd had someone like that around in high school *g*) and the chemistry between them... So good!
I never thought I'd find myself cheering for Lex/Tim, but you even managed that.
The dance was a brilliant dissection of teenage minds and customs, and showed how some things really don't depend on what decade they happen in. (It needed the hairstyles and eyeshadow to remind me and then I couldn't stop snickering.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Pt. II
[info]shadowvalkyrie
2008-09-15 06:51 am UTC (link)
The endings, however, killed me. Both of them. I like the second better, probably because it resembles the "real" universe more closely, but with both of them I can't get past: What? He altered history? No! But, but, it was a parallel universe! You said so! Ahhhhh! Nooooo! Don't let this be true!
They are both soul-searingly painful to read.

The first one is incredibly bittersweet. Beautiful in a way, but deeply alien. And nevermind that they're happy, it just doesn't feel like "home". I love how Dick's addition to the family seems inevitable, though, and how Tim can't keep his hands off Lex. And how it all changes Harvey. (Guh, threesome with both of them. Lucky guy, even if you leave his fascination with pairs aside for a moment.) And Superman... Just, so many things are influenced and it's more than a little overwhelming.
It's a good universe, but "Tom" taking over almost entirely seems too high a price to pay.
And the way the events get compressed, the years seem to fly by, and that makes me deeply wistful and long for the universe Tim has lost where he has the future still ahead of him.

The second ending scares the shit out of me. At first I thought, Yay, not all is lost! Original timeline salvaged! And then you turn poor Tim's entire universe upside down and make it have been like that all his life and... whoa, no! Well, at least Bruce got to grow up a little in this one (which he makes up for by sheer obsession, not that that's not normal for him), but still... Meep. Brain broken. Why does it make so much sense? It's not something I want to believe in, but it makes sense and I hate it a little for that. I don't want Tim to lose himself like that.

Still, I'm sad I've finished reading. *sigh* There go ten litres of cocoa and several packs of paper tissues, because you made me laugh, hurt, and cry with both of it so much.

----

Oh, and I shouldn't need to mention that, but the whole thing is HOT, Te. Always so damn hot. Let me sit here and adore you, Te, and all the marvellous things you write!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Pt. II
[info]thete1
2008-11-07 07:28 pm UTC (link)
The endings, however, killed me. Both of them. I like the second better, probably because it resembles the "real" universe more closely, but with both of them I can't get past: What? He altered history? No! But, but, it was a parallel universe! You said so! Ahhhhh! Nooooo! Don't let this be true!
They are both soul-searingly painful to read.

As I mentioned in another comment, my pre-readers and regular chat-buddies were split 2 and 2 in terms of which ending they thought would be better, so there was a fair amount of *discussion* about how they would go. It's rare that I know so *well* how a given ending will go before I start writing, but it surely did keep me *motivated*. There's just something endlessly tempting, for me, about fucking with the timeline.

The first one is incredibly bittersweet. Beautiful in a way, but deeply alien. And nevermind that they're happy, it just doesn't feel like "home". I love how Dick's addition to the family seems inevitable, though, and how Tim can't keep his hands off Lex. And how it all changes Harvey. (Guh, threesome with both of them. Lucky guy, even if you leave his fascination with pairs aside for a moment.) And Superman... Just, so many things are influenced and it's more than a little overwhelming.

Mmm, well... I can't get over the possibilities in that first ending. I really just *can't*, *because* it changes everything while also not changing very much at all. It's really terribly *compelling* for me... but then, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool AU-lover...

And the way the events get compressed, the years seem to fly by, and that makes me deeply wistful and long for the universe Tim has lost where he has the future still ahead of him.

I can understand that... which is part of why there's a 200+ pages of "missing scenes" for people to read. (hopefully. heh.)

And then you turn poor Tim's entire universe upside down and make it have been like that all his life and... whoa, no! Well, at least Bruce got to grow up a little in this one (which he makes up for by sheer obsession, not that that's not normal for him), but still... Meep. Brain broken. Why does it make so much sense? It's not something I want to believe in, but it makes sense and I hate it a little for that. I don't want Tim to lose himself like that.

The second ending is kind of a manifesto *against* True Love, because... well. That's a Bruce and Tim who will never truly part. Who *can't*, because they've *made* each other, built each other into these twisted, fucked-up, desperately hungry and *needy* people. True love *forever*, but the cost is just incalculable.

Oh, and I shouldn't need to mention that, but the whole thing is HOT, Te. Always so damn hot. Let me sit here and adore you, Te, and all the marvellous things you write!

*purrr* Thank you so much for the (as ever!) wonderful feedback!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Pt. II
[info]shadowvalkyrie
2008-11-08 11:07 am UTC (link)
Mmm, well... I can't get over the possibilities in that first ending. I really just *can't*, *because* it changes everything while also not changing very much at all. It's really terribly *compelling* for me... but then, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool AU-lover...

I'm always torn about AUs. On the one hand, all those fascinating possibilities! On the other hand, change hurts, even if it makes people happier...

part of why there's a 200+ pages of "missing scenes" for people to read

It sure makes the bitterness go down more sweetly. *g* I love sequels. Where there's one, there might be another... It allows a story to neve end completely in my head (if that makes sense)... And that just makes me happy.

The second ending is kind of a manifesto *against* True Love, because... well. That's a Bruce and Tim who will never truly part. Who *can't*, because they've *made* each other, built each other into these twisted, fucked-up, desperately hungry and *needy* people. True love *forever*, but the cost is just incalculable.

Congrats, by putting it like this, you just made it even more creepy. (I did mention I love you, right?)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Pt. I
[info]thete1
2008-11-07 07:21 pm UTC (link)
But let me try anyway, because you deserve all the happy flaily comments you could ever want.

This is where I point out that your feedback is *always* awesome. :D

The first part (Bruce and Tim at the manor) must be one of the cutest things in existence. It's also scary, in the thoroughly enjoyable Tim-being-a-lying-Bastard-and-getting-lost-in-it-a-little way.

*ehehehee* Even *I* was a little shocked at what a lying bastard Tim turned out to be. Honestly, if he *hadn't* gotten lost in it I would've had to reach through the computer screen to *smack* him...

I love Tim's reaction to 70s Gotham, the fashion, his care about language... Damn, the seventies were amusing! Well, right until we get innocent, confused-about-his-sexuality Bruce, who is already 16 but has never seen a porn movie in his life and has no clue what to do, and suddenly the seventies are a lot less fun.

Heh, yes, *that*. I gotta say -- it's a lot more fun to write "OMG I AM TEH GAY" freakouts when you *know* it'll be all better soon. Poor *Bruce*.

And then Tim kicks Bruce on the right way to becoming Batman even though he knows perfectly well how insane the whole thing is. *urge to run screaming rising*

Bruce: "I think I might be crazy!"
Tim: "... no, really, you're just... um. Sensitive! Yes, sensitive. Here, let's do some push-ups."
Bruce: "But --"
Tim: "DROP AND GIVE ME FIFTY."

And Steph... trample on my heart some more, why don't you?

I hated Steph's death in canon a LOT, but I can't help but admit that it gave me a lot to write about...

It's still a happy place, though. With Christmas presents, and dates, and making out on a rooftop, and Alfred being Alfred. Oh, wait, that last one was somewhat creepy. Yet also sweet.

I really wanted to *show* readers how the manor could be its own universe, no matter *when* you are in time...

The second part (at Exeter, and eeep, boarding school! dorm sex!) made me happy as well, though in different ways. All the clever little mind games and young!Harvey and pseudo-teenage-rebel!Lex and David Bowie... The need to hide all the time... And the communal showers, because those will never not be sexy.

*ahahahaa* YESSSS. I will NEVER stop being fond of throwing communal showers into a story. Just -- woo. WOO, I say.

And Bruce being young and innocent and asking Tim and Harvey to have sex with each other... And Harvey as Bruce's guidebook to unwritten rules (I found myself wishing I'd had someone like that around in high school *g*) and the chemistry between them... So good!

The comics *tell* us over and over that Harvey was a massively important part of Bruce's life, but they so rarely *show* it to us... well, I've always been a little obsessed with the possibilities there.

I never thought I'd find myself cheering for Lex/Tim, but you even managed that.

*ahahaha* Oh, did they *ever* work my brain over. Let's just say that I kind of begged and pleaded Jack to come up with a Lex voice and leave it at that, hmm...?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Pt. I
[info]shadowvalkyrie
2008-11-08 10:57 am UTC (link)
Bruce: "I think I might be crazy!"
Tim: "... no, really, you're just... um. Sensitive! Yes, sensitive. Here, let's do some push-ups."
Bruce: "But --"
Tim: "DROP AND GIVE ME FIFTY."

Aren't they just so darling together? "X-D

I will NEVER stop being fond of throwing communal showers into a story.

Good! ":-D

The comics *tell* us over and over that Harvey was a massively important part of Bruce's life, but they so rarely *show* it to us... well, I've always been a little obsessed with the possibilities there.

And you do a brilliant job of showing these possibilities. His whole compensation for Bruce's... occasional social inaptitude makes a whole lot of sense!

Let's just say that I kind of begged and pleaded Jack to come up with a Lex voice and leave it at that, hmm...?

All your first readers definitely need to be given credit for keeping you writing and helping your creativity in all sorts of ways. *cheers them on as well*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Door 1
[info]megami
2008-09-15 07:36 pm UTC (link)

Dr. Fate’s cameo as Dr. Plot Device *totally* works! That was brilliant!

For some reason, the thing I can’t stop thinking about is Clark. Would Tim’s presence affect Bruce and Clark’s relationship? Tim doesn’t think so, but would Clark ever be able to trust a Batman who is that close to Luthor? I loved Bruce’s initial reaction to Clark and Clark’s initial reaction to Bruce. Maybe it’s possible, but with Bruce staying out of the JLA, will they get to work together that often? When Clark smelled Luthor on Tim…broke my brain even more! The whole Tim/Lex relationship surprised me more than anything else in this story, but it worked, in a kind of scary way. Maybe Tim will make Lex a bit less paranoid of metas, so he won’t turn (so) evil, but, hmm.

It was so sweet how Tim tried to prevent Dick’s parents’ death, but in the end, I feel that the person who benefits the most from this ending is Dick. I remember reading in someone’s story, maybe Te’s, that Dick felt resentful/guilty because he felf that if Bruce could do it all over again, he’d choose his parents over the Life (and therefore, over Dick) but if Dick had to do it all over again, he’d choose Bruce. I kind of agree with that. In this ‘verse, Dick gets both Tim and Bruce as mentors and will probably never get fired by Bruce. He gets the happy ending.

Oh, and I loved loved loved the three-way with Bruce/Harvey/Tim. It felt completely inevitable in this storyline, but still may not be enough to save Harvey forever. I didn’t feel that Tim and Harvey were having sex just for Bruce. I felt that they Tim and Harvey loved Bruce *so much* that they couldn’t help loving each other too.

I guess throughout this story, I loved how Bruce loves. That part of his personality came through even at age sixteen, and really defines his character even in this mixed-up storyline.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Door 1
[info]thete1
2008-11-07 07:37 pm UTC (link)
Dr. Fate’s cameo as Dr. Plot Device *totally* works! That was brilliant!

*ahahaha* I totally just picked someone out of the blue for that one. I know *disgracefully* little about the JSA.

For some reason, the thing I can’t stop thinking about is Clark. Would Tim’s presence affect Bruce and Clark’s relationship? Tim doesn’t think so, but would Clark ever be able to trust a Batman who is that close to Luthor?

Well, I think so -- mainly because this is a Lex who just hasn't gone that far over to the Dark Side -- if you discount the dead father thing, for which there's no proof whatsoever. *Tim* knows, *Bruce* knows -- and Harvey probably knows, too, or at least suspects -- but no one else really does. And that *includes* Clark. Now, whether or not this happy state of affairs would continue once Lex starts working on cloning projects... is a story I hope to write before the end of the year. :D

When Clark smelled Luthor on Tim…broke my brain even more! The whole Tim/Lex relationship surprised me more than anything else in this story, but it worked, in a kind of scary way. Maybe Tim will make Lex a bit less paranoid of metas, so he won’t turn (so) evil, but, hmm.

We shall see what we shall see...

It was so sweet how Tim tried to prevent Dick’s parents’ death, but in the end, I feel that the person who benefits the most from this ending is Dick. I remember reading in someone’s story, maybe Te’s, that Dick felt resentful/guilty because he felf that if Bruce could do it all over again, he’d choose his parents over the Life (and therefore, over Dick) but if Dick had to do it all over again, he’d choose Bruce.

That's actually canon! Or -- I think I'm remembering it right. GOTHAM KNIGHTS #14, iirc. But yes, it's a *huge* part of how I characterize Dick in my mind.

In this ‘verse, Dick gets both Tim and Bruce as mentors and will probably never get fired by Bruce. He gets the happy ending.

It's true! If anything, this Bruce is going to love him and cherish him even more than he does in canon. Or... perhaps I mean he'll do it *better*.

I felt that they Tim and Harvey loved Bruce *so much* that they couldn’t help loving each other too.

*nod nod nod* I think that's totally there. They can't help wanting to make Bruce *happy*, but they also like each other a great deal. And really -- no *bad*.

I guess throughout this story, I loved how Bruce loves. That part of his personality came through even at age sixteen, and really defines his character even in this mixed-up storyline.

Mmmmm, YES. Really, the way Bruce loves is one of the things I love most about him. It's just so deep, so full, so all-encompassing. There's no *give* to it, except in the sense that Bruce *wants* to give *everything*...

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Door 2
[info]megami
2008-09-15 08:07 pm UTC (link)
I hope you don't mind my LONG comments. I just can't help myself!

Of course, this is the ending I was *hoping* for. But ouch! My head is still hurting from all the time-travel/space-time continuum stuff. I kept wondering, that if this were to be the ending, and Bruce (and Alfred!) knew since Tim entered their lives what was going to happen, how he would recognize Dick and think to adopt him when the time was right, but having him (having had him?—major tense problems here) along for the ride with Fate was perfect. Not only did it serve to make Bruce know who Dick was, but also he made sure that Tim would actually want to go home.

Dick’s role in this whole thing is something I need to spend more time thinking about. Also, how Tim is going to explain this whole thing to Dick. I think I’m going to be spending a lot of time thinking about that, for obvious reasons. Tim wouldn’t be Tim, or Tom, if there had been no Dick. Tim channeled Dick in order to create Tom. God, did Bruce go to the circus because he had seen a picture of Dick? My head hurts. Tim *needs* Dick so much, and Bruce absolutely *understands*. I love Bruce.

This line made me swoon: "I'll never let you go. I'll be jealous and moody when you feel the need to share yourself with someone else. I'll be pettish and immature when you come back to me. I'll need you until I die." *Sigh* Bruce is so romantic!

And this line: "You have other options for that last." Te, how do you make words that are otherwise perfectly innocuous the sexiest thing I have ever read? You just love to leave your readers food for, um, thought. Yeah.

Bruce told time by Tim’s *scars*! Another brain-breaking moment, when I though about all the implications of *that*. What must Bruce have thought when Tim got the slash on his throat?! Oh, and all the stuff Bruce taught Tim about Bruce’s family just so that Tim would be able to lie to him convincingly. That’s…God Te, how did you think all that up?

My absolutely favorite line: "When I made love to Clark, I dreamed of showing you *everything*."

Sigh. I think I’m a Bruce/Tim shipper most of all, but I think it works best when Bruce can admit how much he loves Clark. Any story where Bruce can share his love for Clark with Tim makes me very very *happy*. (Also, stories where Clark can share his love for Bruce with Lois make me happy.) I feel that in the DCU, Batman/Superman is kind of necessary, and all the references in this story to the other superheroes who were around made me kind of sad, because the WF didn’t exist yet. Somehow, the DCU would be incomplete without the two of them. Even if they existed but didn’t love each other, their world would definitely be less sunshiny. Yes, that’s the only word I can think of.

The implications of this story on Bruce’s motivation for becoming Batman are kind of staggering. Bruce went abroad and learned mysticism and other things because he wanted to find Tim, because he needed to become Dr. Fate’s *equal*. Would he not have become Batman had he not fallen in love with Tim? Did the brief encounter with Fate give Bruce the confidence he needed to know that he could belong to the superhero world? Did the whole “multiverse” encounter do that for him? What does that say about the Mission?

I think that this story will forever impact how I see Batman, even this latest series of movies. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I’ll always be wondering if there was a Tom in Bruce’s past, guiding the Bat at all times.

Addendum: right now I’m watching Batman Begins on *network TV* and I can’t help thinking that this is just filler between Act II and Door #2. Now *I’m* hearing the Bat. Te, what have you done to me????

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Re: Door 2
[info]thete1
2008-11-07 08:47 pm UTC (link)
I hope you don't mind my LONG comments. I just can't help myself!

What was that? I couldn't hear you because I was too busy ROLLING AROUND IN DELICIOUS FEEDBACK.

I kept wondering, that if this were to be the ending, and Bruce (and Alfred!) knew since Tim entered their lives what was going to happen, how he would recognize Dick and think to adopt him when the time was right, but having him (having had him?—major tense problems here) along for the ride with Fate was perfect. Not only did it serve to make Bruce know who Dick was, but also he made sure that Tim would actually want to go home.

I think Bruce really didn't twig to Dick's identity *until* Tim entered his life, and he could brush away his doubts and wonderings and *know* that the beautiful young man he'd raised was, in fact, Tim's "teacher." I tend to think that you need a seriously *wrong* Bruce in order to have a Bruce who *wouldn't* take Dick in once his parents were murdered...

That said, he *definitely* had to send Dick to get Tim once he understood how Tim felt about Dick...

Tim wouldn’t be Tim, or Tom, if there had been no Dick. Tim channeled Dick in order to create Tom.

Yes, *that*. And I think Bruce picked that up *quickly*...

*Sigh* Bruce is so romantic!

*ahahaha* Bruce is CRAZY. But yes, he's also romantic. :D *also sighs*

Te, how do you make words that are otherwise perfectly innocuous the sexiest thing I have ever read? You just love to leave your readers food for, um, thought. Yeah.

*ehehehe* I get a *real* kick out of the image of readers filling in the blanks for themselves.

Bruce told time by Tim’s *scars*! Another brain-breaking moment, when I though about all the implications of *that*. What must Bruce have thought when Tim got the slash on his throat?! Oh, and all the stuff Bruce taught Tim about Bruce’s family just so that Tim would be able to lie to him convincingly. That’s…God Te, how did you think all that up?

Words cannot express how much -- and how often -- I obsess about Bruce/Tim. I mean, I want to stay with Jack forever *anyway*, but I really couldn't ever be involved with someone who couldn't make up stories and pornlets with me every day. And I think Bruce's brain *broke* when Jason slashed Tim's throat. And then he started thinking "soon. It will be soon."

My absolutely favorite line: "When I made love to Clark, I dreamed of showing you *everything*."

:D My heart belongs to Bruce/Tim, Clark/Tim, and Bruce/Clark/Tim. (and Lex/Tim. And Jason/Tim. And Dick/Tim. And -- okay, so my heart is a SLUT.)

(Also, stories where Clark can share his love for Bruce with Lois make me happy.)

Mm-HM. Lois really isn't my kink at all, but sometimes I can view her through Clark's eyes, and she's just a wonder.

I feel that in the DCU, Batman/Superman is kind of necessary, and all the references in this story to the other superheroes who were around made me kind of sad, because the WF didn’t exist yet. Somehow, the DCU would be incomplete without the two of them. Even if they existed but didn’t love each other, their world would definitely be less sunshiny. Yes, that’s the only word I can think of.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. They're the *World's Finest*. They belong together, even if it's just... hmm... their *souls*, I guess. For me, though, I think the concept of "World's Finest" is more fluid, which is why it can apply to Batgirl/Supergirl, Robin/Superboy, and even, in some ways, Superman/Robin. Hell, Gloss convinced me that it could work for Batman/Superboy...

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Re: Door 2
[info]thete1
2008-11-07 08:47 pm UTC (link)
Would he not have become Batman had he not fallen in love with Tim? Did the brief encounter with Fate give Bruce the confidence he needed to know that he could belong to the superhero world? Did the whole “multiverse” encounter do that for him? What does that say about the Mission?

That first question is something I wanted to leave up in the air for the reader. In a lot of ways, this Bruce is a lot more *human* than the one canon gave us, and, yes, more *sane*. He doesn't want to be alone, he doesn't want to live with fear, he doesn't want to be *alone* -- and that makes a difference. *I* think that he still would've become Batman, throwing himself into the work half to mollify the Bat and half to make himself into someone 'Tom' would be proud of... but I'm just the writer.

Addendum: right now I’m watching Batman Begins on *network TV* and I can’t help thinking that this is just filler between Act II and Door #2. Now *I’m* hearing the Bat. Te, what have you done to me????

*ahahahahaa* AWESOME.

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[info]bohlster
2008-09-18 10:39 am UTC (link)
I...*wow*. This completely blew me away, the intertwined sex and identity/psychology and plot. I love the duality of this story, and the fact that along with making me flail, sigh, smile, and ache, it made me *think*. What an incredible piece of work - you say it's the story of your heart, and I just want you to know that from now on it's got a place in mine, too. ♥

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[info]thete1
2008-11-07 09:12 pm UTC (link)
I...*wow*. This completely blew me away, the intertwined sex and identity/psychology and plot.

\o/ I'm so glad!

I love the duality of this story, and the fact that along with making me flail, sigh, smile, and ache, it made me *think*.

In some ways, it was really an indulgence on my part to write it from both Bruce's and Tim's POV, but it also let the story be richer than it would have otherwise been, I think. There's no way in *hell* I would've been able to write everything from Bruce's POV, and I would've gotten bored if it was just Tim. Bruce and Tim *are* a lot alike... but Bruce has to grow into that.

What an incredible piece of work - you say it's the story of your heart, and I just want you to know that from now on it's got a place in mine, too. ♥

*purr* YAY TEAM ME. *heeee* Thanks so much for the feedback!

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(Anonymous)
2008-09-19 09:59 am UTC (link)
This was...well, really LONG, and really AWESOME. I've read Victorian novels in less time than this took me. I am impressed. The story really got good for me once they got to Exeter--aside from the fact that boarding school stories = win, I think I'm always happiest with your writing when your characters are navigating entire networks of relationships. Also, omg, Lex! I have never cared about Lex Luthor in my life, but his interactions w/ Tim were my favorite parts of this story. I totally want to see him discover Tim/Tom in ending 2 world, even though I think it would break the universe. I think my love for Lex in this story is a bit like Tim's need for him--people and characters are most interesting to me when they're honest with each other (even if the honesty is all about acknowledging the fact that you're a lying bastard).

My god, what would happen if Tim encountered Luthor now and then Clark saw/smelled/whatevered Tim and knew something was UP? What if, in some corner of the multiverse, Luthor tried to make Tim into the FIRST LADY? I...am going to go laugh hysterically in a corner now.

Good job.

-sb

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[info]thete1
2008-11-07 09:02 pm UTC (link)
This was...well, really LONG, and really AWESOME.

My whole *summer*. *laughs* Every day, for hours and hours... yeah. I *was* ready for it to end, because I always knew where it *would* end, but still... months later, I think my soul still feels a little stripped.

aside from the fact that boarding school stories = win, I think I'm always happiest with your writing when your characters are navigating entire networks of relationships.

It's much, much harder to write the network stories, but I have to admit that, when they work, they're the most satisfying. In *some* ways, anyway.

Also, omg, Lex! I have never cared about Lex Luthor in my life, but his interactions w/ Tim were my favorite parts of this story. I totally want to see him discover Tim/Tom in ending 2 world, even though I think it would break the universe.

*laughs* It really, really, *really* would. Which is not to say I haven't fantasized about it a bit, but... I doubt I'll write it.

I think my love for Lex in this story is a bit like Tim's need for him--people and characters are most interesting to me when they're honest with each other (even if the honesty is all about acknowledging the fact that you're a lying bastard).

Mmmyeah. The sexiest characters are always the most self-aware ones, I think. Especially if they're aware of how *fucked up* they are.

My god, what would happen if Tim encountered Luthor now and then Clark saw/smelled/whatevered Tim and knew something was UP? What if, in some corner of the multiverse, Luthor tried to make Tim into the FIRST LADY? I...am going to go laugh hysterically in a corner now.

Good job.

*dies dies dies* God, Lex *would*.

Tim: "Is that. Is that a pillbox *hat*?!"

Lex: "Put it on. Darling."

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[info]mel_spiel
2008-09-20 12:46 am UTC (link)
The ending (second alternate) was so perfect it made me cry. I loved everyone's interaction. Tim's decompression was so fucked because of his relationship with Bruce. It was all well and truly amazing. Loved what you did with Lex and Bruce's 26 year old questions. I really would love to know how Tim and Alfred navigates Tom's reunion with the family.

Clark's youth, Harvey's redemption and Lex's potential were awesome, but I'm sorry that Bruce remained removed from the league. I loved the Graysons but then they always were beautiful.

Thanks for posting.
Mel

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[info]thete1
2008-11-07 09:18 pm UTC (link)
The ending (second alternate) was so perfect it made me cry. I loved everyone's interaction. Tim's decompression was so fucked because of his relationship with Bruce. It was all well and truly amazing. Loved what you did with Lex and Bruce's 26 year old questions. I really would love to know how Tim and Alfred navigates Tom's reunion with the family.

*beam* It was... hmm. Well, when I got to the point in the story where the universe splits, I *immediately* jumped ahead to write the second ending, because part of me was just *dying* to get there -- though I have to admit that that had more to do with the sex than anything else. I do have thoughts about What Happens Next there, but I honestly don't know if I'll write them or not...

Clark's youth, Harvey's redemption and Lex's potential were awesome, but I'm sorry that Bruce remained removed from the league. I loved the Graysons but then they always were beautiful.

But this is where my *soul* went, to be honest. ALL of that potential just *drove* me, really. What can I say? I'm an AU *lover*.

Thanks for the feedback!

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Wow!
(Anonymous)
2008-09-25 06:57 pm UTC (link)
A Way So Familiar is really good. I enjoyed reading it. Thank you for writing.

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Re: Wow!
[info]thete1
2008-11-07 09:24 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for responding! I'm glad it worked for you. :D

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"A way so familiar" fan-girling
(Anonymous)
2008-10-16 05:48 pm UTC (link)
I read this story over a week ago, and I've been flailing around trying to think of something intelligent to say about it ever since. Apparently, that's not gonna happen, so I'll go with my strengths and just drool and stare. *Pause to lick story*

Things I loved about the first ending:

1) You saved Lex. You saved Lex! Sorta. Which, I suppose, is as much as he can be saved. I do love me some Luthor. All of the supervillans are wasted, of course, but I feel that he is the biggest waste. All that brillance and focus, lost to the service of his own ego . . .

2) Bruce's . . . everything, really. You do a believable Batman all the time, but I've probably missed you getting deeply into Bruce before. Now I have to read my way through your entire oevure. Not that I didn't intend to do that anyway, but now I'm really motivated.
Bruce Moment that I particularly liked: "Why aren't I enough?" without the slightest irony. Oh, Bruce.

3) Tim-as-Batman developing permanent frown lines.

And yet, the second ending was the one that I kept coming back to. *Pause to lick second ending* It was more . . . not more believeable, but . . . I can't express it. This is why I stick to squealing. The time travel lover in me liked the circularity of Tom shaping Bruce into Tim's vision of Batman shaping Tim into Bruce's vision of Tom. The Batman lover in me liked the idea of there being a few good moments in the Bat's past, and the chance of a few more in the future. The perv in me loved the possessive, dominating sex. Though I enjoyed them both, the second ending worked for me better, somehow. I don't even want a sequel to it, which usually means either that a story satisfied me completely on all levels, or that I hated it. I definitely did not hate this.

Hope that your health issues are satisfactorily resolved in the near future. Pleae keep writing and posting!


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Re: "A way so familiar" fan-girling
[info]thete1
2008-11-07 09:35 pm UTC (link)
I read this story over a week ago, and I've been flailing around trying to think of something intelligent to say about it ever since. Apparently, that's not gonna happen, so I'll go with my strengths and just drool and stare. *Pause to lick story*

*ehehehe* I *like* drooling and staring.

1) You saved Lex. You saved Lex! Sorta. Which, I suppose, is as much as he can be saved. I do love me some Luthor. All of the supervillans are wasted, of course, but I feel that he is the biggest waste. All that brillance and focus, lost to the service of his own ego . . .

I'm not sure how I *feel* about the idea that Lex has just needed proof that humanity had more than a few bright sparks, that he needed to be touched -- and hoisted -- on that particular fact, but I have to admit that my she-parts are going with it like *whoa*.

2) Bruce's . . . everything, really. You do a believable Batman all the time, but I've probably missed you getting deeply into Bruce before. Now I have to read my way through your entire oevure. Not that I didn't intend to do that anyway, but now I'm really motivated.
Bruce Moment that I particularly liked: "Why aren't I enough?" without the slightest irony. Oh, Bruce.

You know, in a lot of ways? I *couldn't* have written this story without having written all the ones which came before. I had to *learn* Bruce, get deep within him and roll around a little bit. What does it really *mean* to have a part of you always be eight years old? How would that work without all of those *other* parts that time gave him? So -- I think there are pieces of this Bruce in a lot of my other stories, but that this is the first time I've really gotten the whole person (to some extent, anyway) down on the page.

3) Tim-as-Batman developing permanent frown lines.

Heh, Tim was *born* to have those frown lines.

It was more . . . not more believeable, but . . . I can't express it. This is why I stick to squealing. The time travel lover in me liked the circularity of Tom shaping Bruce into Tim's vision of Batman shaping Tim into Bruce's vision of Tom. The Batman lover in me liked the idea of there being a few good moments in the Bat's past, and the chance of a few more in the future. The perv in me loved the possessive, dominating sex.

I can definitely see why readers find that ending more satisfying -- as I said above, I skipped *past* writing the first ending to write the second one at *speed*. But, well, my heart is with the first. It's *very* good to know that both worked for you, though.

Thank you, anonymous person!

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(Anonymous)
2008-10-27 07:14 pm UTC (link)
I just read a high school AU. A good one. That kind of breaks my brain a lot. And makes sense. In scary twisty ways.

I've read as far as the end of Door 1 and it's... more? Please? Only also not, because scary on levels that don't feel entirely rational. Like... like author-power only goes so far and even we-writers can't fix them and that would be bad but then they are fixed a bit and that's good and... have I mentioned brain breaking? Yes.

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[info]thete1
2008-11-07 09:44 pm UTC (link)
I just read a high school AU. A good one. That kind of breaks my brain a lot. And makes sense. In scary twisty ways.

Confession: I've never actually read a high school AU before, as opposed to hearing horrible things about the genre over the years. I honestly didn't even *think* to myself, "Te, you're about to write a high school AU," which is good, because if I did? I probably would've balked hard. *laughs* Anyway.

I've read as far as the end of Door 1 and it's... more? Please? Only also not, because scary on levels that don't feel entirely rational. Like... like author-power only goes so far and even we-writers can't fix them and that would be bad but then they are fixed a bit and that's good and... have I mentioned brain breaking? Yes.

Hmmm... tell me more about this, please? The first ending makes my AU-loving brain go MAD WITH DESIRE, and you're making me curious about author-power...

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Endings A and B
(Anonymous)
2008-11-04 01:15 am UTC (link)
...People prefer the second ending? REALLY?

Yes, the first one hurts, but you are all ABOUT the hurt. And this second one left me blank.

Partly because this second ending's far less emotionally involved--for me AND, I suspect, you, because you give us a lot of dialogue and some action but very little visceral emotion from Tim. So this second ending seems like, I dunno, an exercise, a filling in, rather than something torn outta Tim's guts and balls with a fishhook as it should be--and as the first one is.

But also because-- This son of a bitch Bruce DELIBERATELY let Steph die. He killed her, just to get his Tom back. He set out to fail her, knowing what would happen, and HE KILLED HER! I want to rip his motherfucking throat out.

Can he really have done all of that and still be absolutely on mission and dedicated to never killing? I don't think so.

I'm glad to see your sequel is based on the first ending, and I'm looking forward to it. I'm only surviving this SECOND ending by assuming Tim will recover from being fuck-stupid and get the hell away from him.

Um, yeah. Me? Opinionated much? Guess this has turned out to be an unexpected Nonie-Rant. Sorry. Or maybe not.

I mean, I never really cared about Steph until I saw her through your Tims' eyes years ago, but even if she were Paris Hilton I could never forgive or trust a Bruce who would have done this. And if this second-ending Tim isn't already feeling the shearline in his love and trust for Bruce, I'm misreading undertones in the dialogue.

This second Bruce belongs in Arkham. One can only assume he's passed for sane and non-lethal for this long because he's been holding it together until he could get his Tom back. But there's no going back from this, and as soon as Tim's caught his breath outside of Bruce's presence, he'll know it.

BTW? I love you. You make me care for all of them even more than I can stand.

--Nonie

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Re: Endings A and B
[info]thete1
2008-11-07 09:56 pm UTC (link)
...People prefer the second ending? REALLY?

*points to the fb!*

Partly because this second ending's far less emotionally involved--for me AND, I suspect, you, because you give us a lot of dialogue and some action but very little visceral emotion from Tim. So this second ending seems like, I dunno, an exercise, a filling in, rather than something torn outta Tim's guts and balls with a fishhook as it should be--and as the first one is.

Mm, part of me thinks... that Tim *really* needs to decompress. Like, *really*. Whether or not he'll get a *chance* to with Bruce all over him is a thought for another day, but... well, I guess I think that Tim has a better chance for something *resembling* sanity -- and to grow *up* -- in the first ending.

But also because-- This son of a bitch Bruce DELIBERATELY let Steph die. He killed her, just to get his Tom back. He set out to fail her, knowing what would happen, and HE KILLED HER! I want to rip his motherfucking throat out.

*waves a hand* I don't think he killed her. He didn't *know* how she died, because Tim could've easily lied about that, too. I think he took one look at Steph and *wanted* her -- and wanted to save her for Tim. Save her from *himself*. Thus, he failed to train her in all the ways she needed to *be* trained, and failed to pull her *in* the way she needed to be pulled in. And *that* killed her, if that makes sense.

I'm glad to see your sequel is based on the first ending, and I'm looking forward to it. I'm only surviving this SECOND ending by assuming Tim will recover from being fuck-stupid and get the hell away from him.

Um, yeah. Me? Opinionated much? Guess this has turned out to be an unexpected Nonie-Rant. Sorry. Or maybe not.

*laughs AND loves you more than a little* NOTED!

And if this second-ending Tim isn't already feeling the shearline in his love and trust for Bruce, I'm misreading undertones in the dialogue.

Oh, he really, really is. But mainly because... hmm. He's realizing that he's been *programmed*, and that can't help but fuck a person up, I think.

BTW? I love you. You make me care for all of them even more than I can stand.

*purrrr* Now *that's* a compliment. Thank you, baby!

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just read this tonight!
(Anonymous)
2008-11-14 01:55 am UTC (link)
longtime fan...

Anyway!

I think the second ending is a fair bit more optimistic than a lot of other people seem to think (perhaps even you!), though it might just be my general distaste for AU fic talking. Obviously the idea that he's been somewhat 'programmed' for four years is creepy, as is the idea that Bruce knew Stephanie was doomed. Those are both issues Tim'll have to deal with, but I really did read it at the end as the two kids, two 'brothers', finding each other again. Or, at least, finding each other as much as they possibly could. For a Batman story, I think it qualifies as a happy ending.

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Re: just read this tonight!
[info]thete1
2008-11-16 02:58 pm UTC (link)
I think the second ending is a fair bit more optimistic than a lot of other people seem to think (perhaps even you!), though it might just be my general distaste for AU fic talking.

It's true that you do have to have a love for AUs to go for the first ending. I've always been the kind of person to ask 'what if' at a million different places in every story, so... yeah. :D

Obviously the idea that he's been somewhat 'programmed' for four years is creepy, as is the idea that Bruce knew Stephanie was doomed. Those are both issues Tim'll have to deal with, but I really did read it at the end as the two kids, two 'brothers', finding each other again. Or, at least, finding each other as much as they possibly could. For a Batman story, I think it qualifies as a happy ending.

*laughs* It does, it totally does. And, well, it's Bruce and *Tim*. Happy endings for them just don't *look* like happy endings for other, saner people. It's not that I dislike the second ending -- I think it turned out pretty well -- it's that I'm OBSESSED with the AU possibilities in the first. Thanks for commenting!

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[info]theash
2008-11-16 07:15 am UTC (link)
Okay, so I went back to reread this so I could comment and kept a Worg Doc open to jot down notes and thoughts *as* I reread so that I wouldn't forget some of the things I wanted to say. And It turns out to be not so much a comment as a small book of observations that's much to large for a comment.

ummm...

Which I will def. try to send you. Or would you prefer that I just kind of broke it up and comment spam you?

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[info]thete1
2008-11-16 02:52 pm UTC (link)
And It turns out to be not so much a comment as a small book of observations that's much to large for a comment.

MmmmmmGUH. Um. I. I love having the comments here so I can go back and look at them obsessively, but really? Whichever is easiest for *you*. :D

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[info]theash
2008-11-16 04:09 pm UTC (link)
Random assorted reactions upon (re)reading. Not especially coherent.



1.) My love of Batman through the years has only ever been slightly about Bruce Wayne and largely about the cast of attendant characters, and yes *Robins*, that fill the books. It's therefore something of a cosmic irony that your Teen!Bruce voice is my favorite Bruce Wayne characterization in the history of batficage.

No, it's more than that. Fandom can be, and often is, a very personal and individual thing, and no matter how many fics I've read or how much I've enjoyed them, in the Batfandom in my head I've always believed that Bruce Wayne was essentially a heterosexual man. That hasn't kept me from enjoying the many fics where he isn't but, nevertheless, it was always with a modicum of suspension of disbelief that I read them.

This story is the first time where, to me, it's absolutely believable. Given a Bruce Wayne who is predominantly hetero oriented and then seeks to suppress his sexual desires so as not to be distracted from The Mission, a minor degree, relatively, of bisexuality could potentially go completely unnoticed for someone who hadn't considered that it was possible for them until a situation forces the realization. Given the way canon Batman sometimes seems blindsided by his response to *females* he can't deny his attraction to (Talia? Selina?) and that many bisexual and even homosexual men of that generation didn't realize the extent of their sexuality until their thirties, this could explain a*lot* about his response to (and mistakes with) Dick and Jason.

Therefore a fairly introverted teenaged Bruce Wayne who's just for the first time met someone who truly understands him, and that that person is one of the few men he is capable of being attracted to *and* is his first sexual experience, indeed the reason for the awakening of his awareness of himself as a sexual being, is to me completely believable.

Uhhh... but that's all to do with my personal fandom. Mostly? OMYGOD!!!!! WOOBIETEEN!BRUCIE IS SOOOO KAAAWAAAIIII!!!!!!!!

Okay, sorry. Promise not to do that again.


2.)"He wants Harvey, too. He isn't just a deviant, he's -- he's sluttish, promiscuous the way male homosexuals were always said to be.

He wants Tom so *much*. Just the thought of touching his penis, even now that he knows, that he understands --

Bruce sobs on a breath and turns the shower off. There's no need to waste water, *too*. "


Good *Goddess* the last sentence of that quote. It's as absolutely hilarious as it shouldn't be. For a teenage boy to be having this kind of realization with all it's attendant reflexive shock and horror, especially during the time period this is set, is absolutely not a laughing matter. I may or may not have already sent you the comments for the third fic in this series where I outlined how much I enjoyed Tim and Lex's thoughts and responses vis a vis Lex's (Dad's) car, and how it is an example of the way you continue to underscore that for all that they're incredibly intelligent, capable and strong willed young men, they are also, ultimately, teenage boys. This passage serves the same function beautifully. That painful ludicrousness the brain is prone to when dealing with an emotional shock. That, "Oh *God*! I'm gay! I'm gay and I'm *wasting* water*!! Is there no depth to which I will not sink?" is so very real, and so very very dramatic teenager. Brava.


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[info]theash
2008-11-16 04:29 pm UTC (link)
3.)"I needed you. Maybe... maybe there are Bruces in all sorts of worlds who need you, Tom."

Ouchie

"Batman needs -- Tim shivers"

Yeah. I shivered too.

"The boy in the mirror looks a little confused -- perhaps even frightened -- and there's nothing wrong with that. Here, now, is the perfect opportunity to *let* himself be confused and frightened. He'd given in to -- several of -- his baser urges, and encouraged Bruce to do the same. He *must* have changed something about the path this Bruce would take with this, and that's not merely ego. The Bruce he knows has been defined and redefined by every close relationship in his life, and a Bruce who is redefined is a *Gotham* which is redefined."

The is the point where 'changed the timeline' and the destruction of 'Tim's' future becomes for me not only believable but inevitable. "Batman needs a Robin" and Robin does everything in his power to help Batman. Given a Robin thrown back in time and faced with an emotionally needy and confused Bruce Wayne, there is no real possibility that the Robin in question will be able to keep from helping, whatever the consequences.

This scene where Tim faces himself in the mirror becomes for me especially poignant. Tim knowing on at least some level that he's made irrevocable changes, that he couldn't have done anything else than what he had. That truly, no one who had been Robin could have either. It, for me, was the beginning of Tim saying, "I'm sorry." and "Goodbye" to his life if only by acknowledging the possibility.

4.)"Oh. A rougher touch," Bruce says, and touches his tongue to his upper lip.

Would it be out of line to note that it's become something of a theme for you that 'Timmy's a kinky little bastard'. (not a complaint!) Was this a conscious decision or did it just seem to be a natural progression for the character as your Tim voice became more concrete? Are you willing to discuss it?

5.)"There are two posters -- both of which depict baseball players Tim guesses are reasonably famous. The style of the posters is more reminiscent of blown-up baseball cards than of any of the sports posters Tim is familiar with, but he thinks that has more to do with the fact that he's in the past than with anything else."


Not that it's relevent to anything, but given the time period is set as "seventies-ish" one of them would almost have to be Pete Rose. (and poss Reggie Jackson)

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[info]theash
2008-11-16 04:46 pm UTC (link)
6.) The scene where Harvey and Bruce are masturbating in their room is both as sweet and hot as it absolutely should be. Harvey telling Bruce a dirty little story about the girl he met at the theater, both of them paying so much more attention to each others response *to* each other than to the story itself. It's all innocently yearning and hot in a very sweet way. But at the same time it's Two Face and Batman having a really homocentric jack off session about the time Poison Ivy apparently let Two Face get to third base on the first date. I have to admit that as I was reading it I kind of said, "Oh my God, Te!" out loud in a tone of voice that probably contained just as much awe as it did a rather specific type of horror.

It also has to be said that I love the things you do with respect to alluding to the people that the characters will someday be in respect to both Harvey and Pam. Harvey's line about "There's a split in my head" and his reference to 'Pam' saving up to study Botany in college as well as describing her mostly with vegetative metaphors. On the first read through these things seem mostly to be hints to a reader familiar with canon about who the characters are. For a lessor writer these could have seemed heavy handed on successive readings, but that is not the case here. What could have, in less capable hands, have been intrusive or unnecessary becomes on later readings an homage, both acknowledging and foreshadowing the iconic figures of canon that they will become in due time. Very deftly handled.

On a purely personal note, one of my favorite things about your Tim voice is that he often thinks one (bluntly sarcastic or dryly sardonic) thing but says something else entirely. This effect makes the scene between him and Bruce the next morning one of my all time favorites. Tim has just found out that the man who will one day be Batman has just admitted to the man who will one day be a sociopathic murderer obsessed with *killing* Batman that he's in an incestuous homosexual relationship *and then they made out*. For the young man who has already been a Robin that's had to deal with them both in the future he handles it fairly well. My particular favorite touch was how for a period of time Harvey's name effectively becomes 'Harvey *fucking* Dent', if only in Tim's head.

7.)"at least according to the incredibly pissed-off Tom Wayne inside him. Possibly he should ask Harvey for a coin."


AHHH!!!! Teh *funny*!!!!

Also

Somewhere in one of the comments on a another fic that I may or may not have ever actually sent you there's a not very coherent ramble about your use of 'persona', 'role' and 'identity' that seems to be an ongoing theme in your fics, both the utility of using them and the danger of losing your self in them. This seems especially true of Tim for you.

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[info]theash
2008-11-16 05:00 pm UTC (link)
8.)Whatever one's feelings about Smallville, positive or negative, one of the things that can't be denied is that it (and Michael Rosenbaum) gave fandom a vocabulary for Lex Luthor. Filled in the lines, as it were, between Lex Luthor, Boy Genius and Superboy's best pal (remember that canon?) and President Alexander Luthor, Megalomaniac and Evil Criminal Mastermind. Bwah Ha HA!

Even though the character was Superman's greatest enemy he always seemed (to me) to be a sort of blanket device that any writer could sort of *insert evil plot here* and make it work. Now, however, he's been given a depth and breadth of realization that he didn't seem to have before, that so many of the heroes in comicdom had but that many of the more essential villains seemed to lack in one way or another.

I am not a Lex Luthor fan. I don't think I will ever forgive Smallville for the 'Clex' phenomenon (sorry, sorry) even though I have enjoyed the show's writers'(or possibly just Mr. Rosenbaum's) ability to portray impressive amounts of charm, politesse and force of personality at the same time as giving 'bald, pale and potentially morally bankrupt' a degree of sex appeal.

That said I cannot cannot can*not* think of an instance where I have enjoyed an author's use of the character more than I have here. You really seemed to have fun with Lex in this story and it shows.

I tend to have problems with a genre of fic I think of as the "villian apologia" genre (*cough* harry potter fandom *cough**cough**) but you did an excellent job of both making me see the man Lex could become *and* making me believe that it wasn't inevitable that he would.

9.) My only potential quibble is that I don't think I've ever known a male who would willingly or even comfortably refer to that part of the groin as his mound...err, perhaps that's a regional thing for me.

10.)It never fails to surprise me how much you manage to pack... in with? along side of? around? amongst? the sex scenes in terms of story and character development. I have a tendency with fics I particularly enjoy to skip the porn (kay thanx, I'll come back to that later, now *what*happens*next*?) which is something of a terrible idea with your work because you manage to write great sex scenes that *also* have an incredible amount of other stuff going on at the same time. It's an admirable level of craftsmanship.


There's certainly comments and thoughts about both Door #1 and Door #2 that will come in time and probobaly elaborations on some of the above points should you wish to discuss them. If anything I have said here has offended it was absolutely not my intention to do so.

You always blow me away, I can't thank you for that enough.

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